Even home inspectors cant tell you how far along the damage has progressed. Many homeowners prefer this method because it can save them money. Unfortunately, if you still have poly plumbing, and did not participate in prior polybutylene class-actions, your legal options are likely very limited. Since this is probably unfamiliar territory for you, you will need to be prepared to spend a lot of time searching on the Internet. if the sellers had disclosed the pipe material in the beginning. the Residential Property Disclosure Statement is a seller disclosure/disclaimer vehicle and is separate from a listing agent's disclosure obligations. If you reach our answering service, please leave a message: we return calls in the order they are received. If you've had the misfortune of having your polybutylene plumbing fail, you have to choose whether to fix just the leaking section of piping, or repipe your entire home. Is a washing machine drain hose required to be secured at the standpipe? foreclosures Locating and working on existing pipes requires cutting holes in your walls. They seemed to be a perfect material for plumbing pipes because they were inexpensive and held up well under high water pressures. Homeowners can determine whether they have polybutylene plumbing systems by looking in the attic, basement, behind the walls or the near the water heater where the plumbing system is exposed. We've even seen sales fall through, when homeowners didn't know they had poly plumbing, but it was found during inspection. Hence, to answer the question, yes, a seller is obliged to disclose the presence of polybutylene pipes. However, the seller must be truthful if asked, unless state law allows them to say that they don't wish to answer. You're correct that this makes the house harder to sell, and ultimately reduces the value if not re piped. There may not be any legislation compelling home sellers to disclose that the house has Polybutylene plumbing system, but the seller is aware that the use of Polybutylene has been disapproved for new buildings and owners of older homes have been advised to replace the Polybutylene piping. a professional plumber will charge between $150 and $500. You just have to know who your prospective buyers are, where to find them, and what other factors of such a deal you should consider. No, it is no longer produced. The old house is not as good as I thought. Are plastic pipes (PVC, CPVC, and PEX) safe for drinking water? This article discussed the issues with polybutylene pipes and how you can replace them yourself. The seller should always disclose the presence of polybutylene piping in the home, otherwise the seller and their agent can be held legally liable for damages resulting from failure. What is the difference between water service pipe and water supply pipe? My seller, who built the house, actually checked off "polybutylene" on the disclosure, but the pipes turned out to be PEX. When temperatures rise and fall, poly pipes will expand and contract. The uncertainty surrounding your homes plumbing will easily push it off of their list. Get quotes and review them for completeness. Are Polybutylene Water Supply Pipes Bad? However, this is entirely false. Since our founding in 1991, we've been completing residential and multi-family building repipes to the highest standard. Repipe Specialists - USA. More information about the settlement is available at www.SpencerClass.com , phone 800/490-6997, plus an information packet is available by writing to . The square footage of your home (but if you do disclose, you are liable for the accuracy of the square footage). Can galvanized steel pipe still be used for new water lines in a house? What causes a gurgling sound when a bathtub or sink drains? The second option would be to fix the issue related to the polybutylene pipes yourself and then put your home on the market. Consumer protection laws are getting stricter across the US. It's money well spent if it saves you a $20,000 bill. The polybutylene pipes should have come to light during the home inspection or as part of seller . However, you cant repair polybutylene pipes because these pipes production ceased quite a long time ago. Sec 5.008 (c) A seller or seller's agent shall have no duty . homebuying to learn more. Eventually, this could make them liable for lawsuits from their buyer. Polybutylene pipes were manufactured from 1978 - 1995. Just my opinion. You could easily run afoul of these laws if you arent forthcoming about polybutylene pipes in your home. Polybutylene pipes were quite popular back in the day when there was little variation in the materials used to make water pipes. Home inspectors wont do that. The insurance agent gave me the quote without the pipe information and it was way too high so I forgot about the pipe question until now. houses In this article, I will tell you what must be done to sell yours. Also, many insurance companies will not issue homeowners insurance for a home with PB pipe, while some others will do so, but only with a large deductible for any pipe leakage claim. To keep going forward I'd thought about negotiating back down to there list and put 20k in escrow to cover the replacement. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Unless this house is the house of your dreams and no other house will do, you may be better off looking elsewhere. Polybutylene pipes are difficult to identify. Also, if your home is listed in MLS, the local Multiple Listing Service may require square footage disclosure and . You can, however, replace the polybutylene pipes with PEX piping. The primary manufacturers of the pipe were Shell Chemical Company, Qest (pronounced "quest"), and Vanguard. But read the fine print: If a buyer asks, this same statute requires the seller to disclose any death on the property more than 3 years old. I've been conducting professional home inspections since 2002. Asking if the seller plans to replace the current piping with copper or; Asking for a reduction in price that will cover a copper piping replacement once the home is purchased or: Looking at a home copper or up to code piping already in place. They intend to sell the house right away after repairs are made. Once you find the right one, get quotes and discuss all the requirements. I would not of gone under contract w them had I know and now I've lost 5k because I'm backing out during . Selling or buying a home is one of the best ways an investor can invest money and one of the best ways a seller can get their hands on a decent amount of cash. and our If all the plumbing drains have water in them and you can still smell sewer gas, what's causing the problem? Why is old galvanized steel water pipe a problem for homebuyers? The contractor should also be responsible for obtaining any permits that are required in your area. You only deal with the buyer. Contractor License Info:State license info available in, our location directory. https://www.polybutylene.com/realtor.html. In the US, it has become generally accepted that the failures are most likely due to chemicals in municipal water supplies reacting with polybutylene - and this is one of the primary reasons why homeowners won a largeclass-action lawsuit against Shell Oil (who manufactured and marketed the polybutylene resin). They are regularly looking for homeowners selling a house in poor condition as is. This allowed "jointless" layouts. We are not affiliated with, and do not receive any compensation from, any of the companies or products mentioned in this blog. Minerals in the water, particularly chlorine that was used for purification reacted poorly with the pipes. Look for online reviews and go to BBB.com to see if there are unresolved complaints lodged against them with the Better Business Bureau. Check our price for ateam inspection by two FL-licensed contractors and inspectors. These minerals are a primary reason that contributes to the deterioration of the polybutylene pipes. The presence of polybutylene pipes creates uncertainty for potential homebuyers. Many of them specifically require you to disclose whether or not you are aware of polybutylene piping on your property. Would we have a case since they lied on the disclosure? Once touted as the longer lasting and cheaper alternative to copper pipes, this material was installed in millions of homes throughout the later decades of the 20th century. Better, but not a total solution. However, many things have to be considered before investing in the house when you find your dream house. However, many insurance companies do not cover the damages caused to homes due to natural disasters or fires with polybutylene pipes. It was particularly widely used in the sunbelt states. They will keep the property and rent it to tenants. If you have the funds to make repairs but need to sell quickly, you will also want to look at an investor sale. If you are looking to purchase a home, look out for the signs of polybutylene piping as inspectors and realtors may not be required to disclose. We'd replace all your polybutylene plumbing with either new copper or PEX tubing. Most insurance companies will outright decline to insure a home with PB-pipe because of its history of failure. Moreover, insurance professionals cannot be sure whether the pipes in your home are good or bad. One of the significant aspects of buying a house with polybutylene pipe is the insurance problem. Polybutylene pipe health risks and product failures led to a successful class-action lawsuit in 1995. Here at Repipe Specialists, ourrepiping services utilize only made-in-the-USA high quality copper (Grade L) or Uponor PEX tubing. These modified designs used the same PB pipes, but with upgraded joints. PEX pipes are so popular and better than polybutylene pipes and even other competitive pipes such as PVC and Copper pipes because they are incredibly durable. The insurance usually covers the cost of damages to the home, but not damages caused by natural disasters or fires if they have polybutylene pipes. The kind of pipes you use to replace them, The size of your home and how many stories it has, Whether or not the work includes exterior water supply connections, the availability of the inspecting plumber and the contractor, if you have good weather for any exterior work, the average Days On Market (DOM) for resale homes in your area. If we compare these two options, the first one is very clearly the better and more feasible option for you as a seller because, in this case, you would turn the entire problem over to the buyer and walk away. Your agent is not liable at this point since home inspection did what it was supposed to do: discover defects and needed repairs. How can I tell what type of plumbing pipe I have? What is the difference between water service pipe and water supply pipe? The seller may not want to take the home off the market to have the work done, which includes ripping out a lot of drywall, and there are a lot of properties with this kind of problem. Replacing your exterior water supply connections can cost from $600 to $2,400. Posts: 9,889. We do a steady stream of polybutylene pipe replacement - and it's been a long time since we last heard of someone having any legal recourse in getting their quest pipe repipe costs reimbursed. Definitely negotiate to get them replaced if it's city water. They should specify what materials will be used, hourly rates, and estimated time to do the work. There were lawsuits including a class action lawsuit involving the pipes and disclosure issues. Honestly, I don't think that the sellers were being dishonest or intentionally with holding the fact that the pipes are polybutylene. Polybutylene is a type of plastic potable water plumbing commonly found in many US homes built from the late 1970's through to the mid-1990's. Compared to copper, it was inexpensive, easy to install, and had several other advantages like being resistant to damage from freezing. You should compare their offer to your propertys full market value minus your repair costs and closing costs. The breaking or cracking of pipes means that the water running through these pipes will now have a way to leak into the houses structure and cause long-term damage. Polybutylene water supply pipes broke in the ground outside homes causing soil erosion and foundation damage (if this has already happened to your property, here is an article about selling a house with foundation problems). That would confirm your plumbing is polybutylene. In order to know for certain if you have polybutylene pipes in your home, and their condition, you will need to hire a professional plumber. Heres links to a collection of our other blog posts about PLUMBING PIPES: How can I protect my pipes to keep them from bursting during a hard winter freeze in North Florida? They were often sold under the brand name Quest, and can be referred to with a variety of terms; including PB, PB-1, poly-pipes, or poly-b pipe. This website is managed by 411 Locals and has been temporarily removed. Messages sent using the form on this site, go directly to our email, which we check regularly. Now four years later in the inspection report from my buyer a more dramatic statement is made: "Polyethylene Plumbing Supply Lines have been known to to be randomly defective and can rapture without notice" and the buyer wants me to replace the Polybutylene Pipes in the condo. Your contractor should talk to you about whether its possible to leave the existing pipes in place and re-route the water through the new pipes. That buyer will probably want to negotiate the asking price and reduce it because they have to replace the plumbing, costing them extra money. Polybutylene (PB) piping was standard in homes built between 1978 and 1996. A little about the house its a 3200 Sq ft house with 3 bathrooms which I offered 600k for and they listed for 550k. Another option you can consider if you are interested in buying a house with polybutylene pipes is talking to the seller of the home or the real estate agency that is marketing the house and ask them whether or not it is possible to get the re-piping done and if they can split the cost with you to reduce the burden on you. The final eligibility deadlines for this class action expired many years ago. What is the difference between water pipe and sewage (waste) pipe? You sell your home without having to spend the time and money needed to fix it. All Rights Reserved. Would we have a case since they lied on the disclosure? Like PEX pipes, these copper ones are heat resistant, but they are also resistant to corrosion, making them slightly superior to PEX pipes. Code requirements cited may have been changed in a newer code edition, or may not yet be adopted in your area. If the seller chooses not to replace the polybutylene pipes, give them a release agreement to sign that protects you from all potential liability. Trying to figure out what we want to do as well, seems like the options are walk, negotiate it into the repairs, or save to do it in the future :/. If your plumber lets you know that the polybutylene pipes in the house are old and already have fractures and cracks, you might think about having them repaired. Here are some facts you should note: (1) a broker was sued in Virginia for not disclosing the fact that a home had polybutylene plumbing, (2) a property management firm is being sued for non-disclosure in the condo resale certificates, and (3) an inspection company was sued for failing to disclose poly in a hotel property. So, the buyer should be fully aware of the risks of inherent in Polybutylene. We're also wondering if they made a past claim to the small claims settlement--that would prove they knew. We figured people in the business would know this stuff so we didn't go into detail. Within 10 years or less, homeowners started witnessing leaking or burst pipes and sometimes catastrophic damage from them. Including: Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Oklahoma, Oregon, Tennessee, Texas, Utah & Washington, Published:2022-06-01|Updated:2022-06-27. The most significant historical litigation was the Cox v. Shell Oil class-action lawsuit, culminating in close to a billion dollar settlement in 1995, being paid out to thousands of homeowners over subsequent years. The seller's disclosure statement matters to potential buyers, so you should be honest about lead, pests, repairs, and more. E & L Insurance Services, Inc. All rights reserved. They work with property values in your area every day. Research suggests that polybutylene pipes are prone to becoming brittle and cracking inside out, eventually leading to leakage. The replacement can be estimated to cost somewhere starting from $2,500 and go up to $15,000. Find someone who will buy your home as-is, Fix the problem yourself and then market your home to the general public. How can I tell if I have cast iron pipes in my house? Looking for your dream house can be difficult; finding a home that you like and a place that has exactly what youve been looking for can be challenging and time-consuming as well. Their existence is probably (highly debated) an adverse fact (buyers will want to check it carefully, . As mentioned above, the main problem with polybutylene pipes is that they are too fragile in the long run and become very weak from the inside and subsequently crack. Some states' disclosure laws are more comprehensive than others, and if a feature isn't on the list the seller may not be required to speak up. Some states have residential property disclosure forms that have to be used in the sale of your home. Why is polybutylene piping bad? Some residential insurance policies won't cover damage from poly-pipe failures. having polybutylene pipes and fittings that haven't leaked yet. Suppose youve just bought a house or rented one, and after some inspection, you find out that the housing has polybutylene pipes. They've had the house for 4 year so I doubt they did not know about them. Our Realtor says she has the polybutylene pipes in her house and has never had a problem so we shouldn't worry about it. I've got it! High Desert . The form's name, length, and required information vary by state . Anyone who buys a home with Polybutylene or Kitek or such is simple unhinged or has an unhinged . 16822 SE 92nd Danna Avenue, The Villages, FL 32162, www.thevillagesbestinspector.com Comments or questions tomcgarryandmadsen@mac.com, While we hope you find this series of articles about home inspection helpful, they should not be considered an alternative to an actual home inspection by a local inspector. Owners of these homes are playing musical chairs, waiting for their turn to have to deal with problems caused by polybutylene plumbing. Either copper pipe or PEX tubing are suitable repipe materials, but we find the vast majority of our customers replace their poly pipes with PEX tubing. If the Seller wants to ignore the poly issue, ask them to sign a Release Agreement, indemnifying you of all potential liability. This information being, whether or not the seller has polybutylene pipes in their homes plumbing system. Even if there is no doubt about what type of pipes you have, the condition cannot be determined by looking at the outside of the pipe. May be used as supply lines to plumbing fixtures or . Interior pipes ruptured inside the walls. borrowing I just bought a house in N.C. and I spent $425 on the home and pest inspection and another $275 on the septic inspection, which included draining the tank and doing a camera inspection. Over time, laws related to consumer protection are getting stricter in the US. Call our residential repipe division to schedule a free estimate for your home: Or visit our regular residential repipe site to learn more: Repipe Specialists - USA245 E Olive Ave #500Burbank, CA91502. Can I Sell My House with a Property, State or IRS Tax Lien? They dont have to rely on lenders, appraisers, or third-party inspectors. In new construction, it was replaced by copper or more dependable forms of plastic pipe, such as CPVC and PEX. Can you connect CPVC pipe directly to a gas water heater? This could potentially make you liable for lawsuits from your buyer. If you have time to sell but you dont have the funds to make the needed repairs, you will probably want to consider selling to an investor. Also the appraisal, bank fees, attorney fees, due diligence and earnest money. Of course, the price depends on the size of the house, the number of rooms if you do it yourself or hire a plumber, and of course, the type of pipes you buy. PB-1 is a high molecular weight, linear, isotactic, and semi-crystalline polymer.